Take Good Care: Season 5 Episode 12 – Diversity and Inclusion in the Workplace

Dr. Mironda Williams:

Welcome to Take Good Care podcast.

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

An endeavor that grew out of our love for obstetrics and gynecology. Our aim and mission is to serve as a source of vital information for women of all races, ages, and walks in life.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

I am Dr. Mironda Williams.

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

I’m Dr. Deanna Guthrie.

Dr. Karen Greene:

And I’m Dr. Karen Greene.

Group:

Welcome to our show.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

Welcome to this episode of Take Good Care podcast. I’m Mironda Williams.

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

I’m Dr. Deanna Guthrie.

Dr. Karen Greene:

And I’m Dr. Karen Greene.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

As those of you who followed us this season know we embarked on having a speaker series that we’re calling Life Lessons with Take Good Care. And today we’re so excited to have someone with us who’s going to help further some conversations that we’ve had in some previous episodes about diversity, equity, and inclusion.

That has really been a buzz topic for a number of reasons over the last several months. And it’s been something for the last few years that I think has been a focus for a number of just corporations, educational institutions, business institutions. And so we have done some episodes where we’ve talked about and read about diversity, equity, and inclusion and talked about what it meant for us and our understanding of it.

And we’re so glad that today we have someone with us, Kim Cooks, who this is what she does, this is her thing. So she’s going to help us really understand what that means for those of us who may be in leadership roles or not. And she’s in a very unique position. We’ll let her give a little bit more of her background once she begins to give us … start us in the discussion, but we came across Kim with Karen. So can you just let everyone know just briefly how we got to know about this wonderful lady?

Dr. Karen Greene:

Hello everybody. So I have a very large extended family and my sister-in-law and Kim went to school together. And so through her we became friends. And so she’s actually related to me kind of in two different ways. So she’s a friend of my sister-in-law, but she’s also married to someone who’s related to my husband on the other side.

So she’s like double cousins. So that’s how we met. So we’ve been friends for a number of years and we’re having a discussion one day after a meeting and just talking about what you do. And I was like, “Wait a second, this is what you do. Would you like to come to our podcast and talk about this?” Because we talked about it a little in the past, but I think just having someone who this is what they do and this is their understanding of it and helping us understand it and our audience understand it better, I think it would be an asset. And so that’s why we asked.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

So welcome to Take Good Care podcast, even though we are physicians, yay and we try to stick into our wheelhouse of what we do best, which is medicine and educating in women’s healthcare, we really tried to broaden our conversations with other things that are very important.

But before I go further, I must remind everyone that we are live and on the air. So Kim, I know you said that you were planning on just giving some insights to DEI based on your leadership positions and history of things that you’ve done in the corporate world and just in general. So please just kind of kick us off and get the discussion going.

Kim Cooks:

Sure. Thank you of first, thank you for having me here. And I’ll give you a little background. I actually have worked for very large corporations doing something very different from the medical field. I work in the IT field, and so I’ve worked for companies like Comcast, AT&T, Equifax, and currently work for Amazon.

But in all those companies, I like all of us have benefited and seen when people don’t understand diversity and inclusion. So I’ve made it a point of every company that I’m in to make that part of my mission. Amazon is the largest company that I’ve worked for. It’s probably the second largest in the world.

And so it feels a lot like me being out in society. So I’m not representing Amazon, I will say that first up front, but I definitely am representing my opinions of what it’s like to work in large companies like Amazon and what we can do as leaders to help continue to promote diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

Awesome. Awesome. Well go ahead and get us started. You had given us some information about really clarifying what diversity, equity and inclusion really means and how that may demonstrate itself in the workplace. And so just give us some more education on that.

Kim Cooks:

Happy to do that. Usually when we talk about diversity and probably when we start talking about diversity 10 years ago we really just talked about representation as far as numbers. And so we defined what were the underrepresented, and we said, okay, how many of those people sit in different positions? And we measured it for the company and we said, well, if you have a certain percent, you’re probably diverse.

Equity goes a little further than that and says yes, but are those underrepresented definitions, those people who fall into those categories, do they feel like they are given fair and equal opportunities, salary and leadership as any people who are not in those underrepresented groups? So that’s the equity part.

And the inclusion, which is so much harder to measure, but to me is the most important, is how do those underrepresented people feel like they actually have a voice? And so it’s different, especially as black females where we represent two sets of minorities, it’s different to check the box, but then feeling like I have a voice, feeling like people hear me and give me that equity so I can contribute without having those extra hurdles.

So I think when you put all those three together, those are really what make up a program that is really trying to promote the underrepresented. And so I think that we have to focus on all three.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

Absolutely. And I know we, in other conversations, we remark all the time, I was going to say we’re in a male-dominated field. It may not be so much male-dominated at this time. However, in positions of leadership and where certain decisions are being made that is a white male-dominated room.

We have participated on a number of committees and boards and different things, but we still find whether we’re in those leadership roles or just in our roles as physicians in hospitals, what you just said, are they even really seeing me? And is my voice really being heard and valued? And even in 2024, all of us have 20, 25, 30 years of experience in medicine in this profession, and yet we still, at least I do, I think we’ve all said the same thing, feel like we’re having to continuously prove ourselves, justify our being in the positions and the roles that we have in doing what we do.

We’re surgeons, we operate, surgery in particular has been a very white male-dominated field. And even when it comes to just other staff members, not just other physicians, but just other people in the operating suite, it’s like they defer and it’s challenging and it’s frustrating and it can sometimes be discouraging. And you get to the point where you’re like, just never mind.

Dr. Karen Greene:

It could be exhausting.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

Very exhausting, very exhausting

Dr. Karen Greene:

To try to do your job and then also you feel like, but I’m doing my job, but I also have to do just a little extra so that I am seen, I am heard and I’m appreciated for what I’m bringing to the table as opposed to coming into the room and being assumed that, well, surely this person has knowledge, surely this person needs to be heard, and surely this person is seen and that tends to be the white male perspective as opposed to the black female perspective. We have to actually go the extra step so that that’s obvious to everyone else.

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

And then like she was saying, decisions are made that just kind of come down from on high. You walk in and something has completely changed and you’re like, well, how did this happen? And it affects me the most, right? I didn’t even have a part in this decision to make. So like I said, it can be very frustrating.

Kim Cooks:

And that’s the equity part, I think that’s universal that we all experience. We’ve always been told you had to work a little harder. You had to make sure that you were proving yourself among anybody else in the room. And the IT community is really dominated by males, white males and men from India. And so that’s the equity part that we have to still keep pushing for.

And so I always tell the teams that I mentor is, you’ll never work hard enough, convince someone to respect you if they decide they’re just not going to. So we work 70 hours a week, we come in and our stuff is usually looking twice as good as surgeons. How you define that, and then you feel like, well, gosh, I still wasn’t invited to the meeting before the meeting.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

That’s right.

Kim Cooks:

I still wasn’t given a voice to actually have the conversation and be participating in the decision making. And so those are the things that we have to figure out is well, how can we continue to strive for the things that are important to us knowing that those environments may not change in our lifetime.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

You mentioned in some of the information that you shared with us that you can describe some of the things that you’ve done as a leader to really constantly drive celebrating diversity and driving for equity, driving for inclusion in the workplace. What are some of the things that you’ve been able to either observe or institute in the various roles that you’ve had?

Kim Cooks:

One of the things I try to do is I try for every organization where I join is I look at what is in place to help empower black people, black women, and join those organizations, join those voices or start them in some cases, that’s what I did at Comcast business. I felt that need. I had so many black women coming to me with some of the same situations and some of them are not so much that it was a bad situation, that it becomes an HR issue.

It’s a, I didn’t know how to handle that. I felt like I was cast into a stereotype which I don’t know how to overcome. And so I think the first thing I do, and I do that here at Amazon as well, is to say, what’s the vehicle that I’m going to use to mentor and be mentored? And I think that is the first step because that is part of the inclusion piece.

We’re finding a tribe of people that you can close the door and say, it is just as crazy as you think. Let me reassure you that it’s not you. However, let’s figure out how we can figure out what we want out of this situation and work it so that we make progress.

And that’s hard sometimes to do with just one voice. So I think that’s what I have done here at Amazon, joined the black employee network and really have been working on what are the mentorship programs? How do we have a voice so we don’t just talk about it, that we actually say, what do we want leaders to hear from us? And I think that is the key for any workplace, any organization is find a way to make your voice replicate itself.

Dr. Karen Greene:

So I have a question and I think that’s great that you do that, but I always wonder that, okay, it’s wonderful to have that tribe of people that you can kind of relate to. But when you’re talking to the other people, how do we get them to understand and are they having a true understanding by the numbers that are being presented to them or is it just time that gives them that understanding?

We talk about DEI because we’re kind of on the end of we want to be included, we want diversity. But for those people who may not even see that it’s needed, how are those people convinced? How do they understand what you’re trying to say?

Kim Cooks:

Such a hard question. And it takes, it’s a risk that goes with my answer is calling it when you see it. And as you grow in your career, I mean all of you are very seasoned in your career, you’ve had that experience enough to say, I need you to stop and wait a minute, here’s what I’m hearing and here’s how that felt.

Now sometimes that’s not going to be appreciated. We all know that. And then you have to say, well, okay, I’m going to need the help. And education is not helping our white colleagues understand our struggle because they’re just not going to. And so I try to focus more on the here’s what I’m going to need and here’s how that felt.

And so I need to step back and us go back and readdress this because I think that’s the only way that you can get people to hear you is because if you say you need to understand that as a black person, I wasn’t treated fairly-

Dr. Mironda Williams:

You’re going to cut or shut down.

Kim Cooks:

Then you’ve got to try to explain people what they either already know and don’t care or could just not comprehend. Because most people say, I don’t even understand why we need diversity. But I think in those situations, and I say the risk part is that because everybody’s not willing to receive it.

And I can tell you that I have walked away from a job or politely agreed with the company to leave because it was just a voice that they just were not going to hear. But I don’t regret it. And I think one of the keys that we’re learning now is finding allies, finding people who aren’t necessarily partly underrepresented, but understand the need and getting their voice heard because we don’t like it.

But sometimes you can say the exact same thing and have a white male colleague come in and say what you know just said. And everybody says, that’s a great idea. Well, most of the time we sit and we just say, that is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and you know heard me, right? But allies will say, but Karen said that and you guys need to acknowledge that this is her great idea.

But sometimes you have to kind of nudge your colleagues to say, I need you to do that for me. And what I now do probably because of where I am in my age close to retirement, is I tell my leaders who never look like me, when we start working together, here’s what I’m going to need from you. I don’t need you to come in and protect me.

I don’t need for you to go in and tell people that I’m the greatest doctor in the world, but I do need you to speak up when you see that this is an issue that has nothing to do with my professional work.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

Absolutely. I so appreciate what you just said. I’m sitting here going, okay, because I am the most seasoned and so I’ve already given them my eight-year timeline, so I’m on the way out. But I think one of the things I’ve really been thinking about at this part, my personal life as well as professionally, is what is my legacy?

What do I want to be able to say I impacted as I’m transitioning away from full time practice of clinical medicine? And one of those things is exactly that, which is I have survived 32 years in private practice. I have made certain gains, I’ve been placed in certain levels of leadership.

And so really I do feel I’m at a point in my career where I can take a little more risk in terms of speaking up more and being direct in what I’m saying. And I appreciate what you just said that is so helpful, which is don’t focus on speaking to be understood because they’re not going to understand probably.

But I do need to be very clear in trying to articulate, this is what I heard, this is what I need. This is how we need to address XYZ PDQ so that you move the needle and progress for those after us. One of the first guests that we had this season, another black female colleague in medicine, I think she really touched us because as she was talking to us in that episode, she talked about how much she has looked up to us because she’s just starting in her private practice career.

She stepped out, started her own practice and all those kinds of things. So she was talking about seeing how we have kind of gone ahead and kind of forged a path, has given her a way to model some of what she does so that she doesn’t have to relearn or figure things out on her own because she’s been able to observe some of the things that we’ve done in our private practice.

And we’re just out here trying to take care of patients and keep it busy, keep it moving but that is a part of the legacy now. And we talk about that in terms of really trying to make changes where we can because we can, because I’m not early in my career. I’m on the other end of that. And so yes, I have, we say all the time, we’ve got something to say.

We have experience, we have knowledge, we have wisdom, and we deserve to be heard. And I think we can say that now in ways that are forceful because I’m like, I don’t have to prove anything to anybody at this point. And I like the way you articulated that is that, no, I need you to hear what I’m saying I need and this is what I need. And being very specific about that, instead of saying, I need you to understand because they don’t have our lived experience, so they’re not going to understand.

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

Or help me because this happened. Like you said, I don’t need you to protect me, but I need you to understand what happened and what I need from this, not please do this for me.

Dr. Karen Greene:

It’s interesting that when you think in terms of legacy, I guess when we had our first guest and she made the statement that she had looked up to us, you never realize how many people are really watching you. And so I guess from my perspective, I’m looking at, okay, so what can we do for those other people that are watching us? And it’s not always in medicine.

Sometimes it’s our kids, it’s our friends’ children because they’re going to face the same struggles, hopefully not as many, but how can they deal with them better. When you just said let them know this is how it makes me feel, that to me is a tool that, well, I could use that for my son because he’s in a white male-dominated field as a baseball player and he makes the statement and he’s accepting of it.

But I think that as he goes on to do whatever he plans on doing, he has to negotiate some of the same things where if you want to be heard, you have to let them know that this is what I need maybe in a different way because he’s not as seasoned as we are, but just letting them understand that that’s how that made me feel.

And I’m hopeful that some of his age group will maybe understand that easier than maybe some of our age group. I’m hopeful because or at least hear it, maybe not understand it, but hear it, hear that this is how it made him feel.

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

And another thing that that guest also said that was very impactful, and I think the younger generation, our struggles with equality, equity, diversity are different than theirs now and that’s because work has been done, that sort of thing. But another thing that I remember she was saying, she goes, ‘I’m not out here trying to compete for every patient that’s there,’ she goes, “Just know who you serve, who you serve, know who you serve, keep that as your focus.” And for a lot of the younger generation, the issues with racism are a little bit different for them than it was for us.

Kim Cooks:

And they handle it a little differently.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

Yes, they do.

Kim Cooks:

Sometimes you have to coach them into the, don’t come home and tell me you quit your job because you were mistreated. No, I mean I have to tell both of all three of you that this is the first time representation is so important and that’s the legacy that you’ll leave before you do anything else. This is my first time sitting talking to a group of three female black doctors.

Before you said a word, it was intimidating. That’s the representation, that tells you that representation is so important, important. We just have to be there. And sometimes when you just feel like, listen, I’m having trouble swimming this ocean, you step back and say, just the fact that I am here, tell some of our leaders who are coming along that, hey, we’re now counting on you and we can help you.

Please let us help you where we can, but we need you to pick up this torch and figure out all the new ways how we’re going to have to address diversity, inclusion. So I think that’s the first step is thank you for just being there.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

That’s good. What are some of the other things that you, in your experience through your corporate work that we can also do to further diversity, equity and inclusion in our workplace allies? Talk a little bit more about that. I think that’s something I know I’ve struggled with, and maybe it’s because it’s like, you just do it yourself, you get it done.

But either just being okay and open to looking for trying to develop allies or maybe just even giving yourself permission to say, you know what, it’s okay to have an ally that can help sponsor or help me as I’m negotiating some of these challenges.

Kim Cooks:

I love allies because I think we can use our allies. I love how people say, I’m not working for the institution, I’m working for the cause. And so when you actually form a group of allies, first of all, getting them on record as being allies. And I think that’s when you said, what can we do is allies and sympathizers are two different things. And so I think we all have those colleagues that you can pull a room and they can say, I know that wasn’t right and it really breaks my heart that you were treated that way.

And I would say, but I didn’t hear. So I think holding allies accountable is what we can do because we know, again, we’re fighting for the cause, not the institution, we know that inclusion is based on people saying, I see you the same from a humanity perspective.

And so there’s some people who will only hear a white male voice in the world they’re in. And so forming a group of allies to say, well, then I need to hear you say that. One of the biggest allies that I have gained in the last two years here at Amazon is an Asian gentleman who spoke at our Juneteenth conference and had people in tears because we said to him, we don’t need to hear a black man speak. We know. We need to hear you speak.

And he was an ally. And I even said to him, “Why do you want me to help write your speech?” Thinking, I don’t want you to get up there and say something that we just say why in the world? He wrote the speech and I have to tell you that there was not a dry eye in the room because it was the first time, and I told him that I have ever heard any non-underrepresented person speak so openly about what are our issues with diversity and inclusion and equity and what do we, who have benefited from all those programs that we didn’t need, what should we be doing?

I mean, you had women crying because they’re like, wow, at least you understand there is a struggle. And so I say, what can we do? We have to give some accountability to allies or people who say, not to help me, but who understand the importance of this movement and are doing more than telling us, yeah, sure is a shame you’re treated that way.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

That’s so powerful because again, it’s that accountability piece where you, because we all have these conversations at lunch or at lunch table and you’re like, man, I really hate that happening and I wish there was something I could do. So we need to say, well, I need you to then say that in the next committee meeting or board meeting or whatever meeting, it would be helpful for you to say that. And it seems like such a simple thing, but it’s so powerful.

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

It’s very powerful.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

Like you said, when you see another coming from another perspective that still is able to support why these things are important from their viewpoint. That’s good. That’s powerful. Yeah. I know you had mentioned had some questions from before.

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

Yes. Yes. So one of my questions is how or what are some ways that someone can start a process where they work to better DE and I? You mentioned that you had started things when you joined certain corporations, but how are some of the ways that somebody can do?

Kim Cooks:

I think just starting with the conversation with people who and you always come up, the three of you, I’m sure you’ve had conversations where it wasn’t about a particular patient or whatever, where you realize, wow, we have this in common. And starting there, especially if there’s no affinity group already in place at your organization.

So just starting with like-minds to say, how can we get together and formalize what we’re trying to achieve? And then we can invite people. And I always am very selective about how you do that. It’s go out and get some of your other colleagues that I may not know that understand what we’re trying to get done. And it can start with three people, it can start and then you grow it to 10. And then really formalize it into what do we want to do when we say we’re being successful?

Establishing a safe place is important. That to me is key to getting those groups together. And then how can we actually then use our voice to ask for something from people who are leaders in this company who have committed to helping us anyway, which is a little harder, but that’s what you have to do. And I think we all need the safe space and then we can then turn that safe space into, but then what do we want to get done internally and externally?

We used to have, which we thought was silly, but it really worked, we would have, let’s play this thing back and how can we help? Everybody gives suggestions about when you encounter this scenario, what are some ways that you feel like would mean success for you? And that’s what I did when we were at Comcast and it was, wow.

So then we then turned that into, Amazon is much bigger, and so they have black infinity groups, which are very powerful. And so working, if you say, well, I’m not really one to start a group, then go to the groups that are already there and help, even if it’s one little thing that you just say, what’s the one little thing we can do so people see?

And I think as black people, we have to be careful with our message and trying to make sure that we are not labeled as well, that’s just trouble. And so finding ways to say we want to be supportive. And I always tell people, tie it back to something where the business can gain from what you’re asking for because that’s where your voice gets heard.

Because people are less likely to say, well, we’re going to give you some money for something that we can’t see equates to, but how does that help us? But you can tie any diversity and inclusion program back to how it helps the business. So I think that’s the first step is just getting like-minds. And then again, I still say get allies because they can open doors. They can open the doors that they can open.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

Very true.

Dr. Karen Greene:

It’s funny you said something about when you have a scenario and you kind of run it back and say what we could have done differently, it makes me think of when we have things happen at the hospital and we have to have a debrief and you kind of replay, how could we have done that differently and relating it to-

Dr. Mironda Williams:

In terms of patient care issues.

Dr. Karen Greene:

In terms of patient care issues. And so if there is an inclusion issue in that, that’s probably the time to bring it up. Certain things that we see, and I was thinking specifically in terms of maternal healthcare, maternal morbidity, how could that situation have been done differently to have a better outcome?

Or how could the person have been seen differently if they felt they weren’t seen? Because I think as patients, a lot of times they don’t feel seen. And if they don’t feel seen, how can we as physicians help them to feel seen? And if we can relate as physicians, how can our colleagues understand that, understand why they didn’t feel seen in that particular scenario? Why weren’t their questions answered? What could we have done differently and throw it out there? How could you have done it differently?

Dr. Mironda Williams:

That’s excellent Karen, because to Kim’s point, you’re starting, you’re asking the right DE and I question in a setting that’s already established for review and problem solving from a clinical standpoint. Well now this helps us to bring in that part of our clinical viewpoint in terms of how we take care of our patients better is understanding what could have been a barrier, what could have been an obstacle from an equity, from a diversity, from an inclusion understanding?

What could we have done differently when she said this or didn’t say that? How do we then open our eyes not just to the clinical things that we’ve got to do, but from another perspective that’s DE and I? That’s great. That’s good because I was sitting here thinking, I don’t know, what can we do now? That’s it.

It is just making that a question in the setting of something that we’re already doing because Deanna, you know we sit on enough committees, quality committee, the this committee, the that, so that’s a way to do that, to speak up and say, is there an inclusion challenge that we have that we might want to look at?

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

Opportunity.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

Opportunity.

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

There’s the word.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

Is there an inclusion opportunity that we can pursue and investigate? That’s great. That’s good. I mean, that’s something we could start now. That’s good. I like that.

Kim Cooks:

Yeah, I laughed about that one because my niece recently had a baby, and whether perception or reality, it’s all the same to the person feeling it right as a patient. And we felt like the black nurse got it. She came in, she was giving all the steps, and she’s talking like mama talks, right? Look, honey. Well, she came, she went off shift, the new nurse came in. Very nice.

But you just kind of felt like, well, and then when it was time for her to have the baby, now all this is perception since I’m not in the medical field, it was like, well, we didn’t kind of feel like she was really trying to push for her to have the baby naturally, right or wrong. My niece felt like, I just don’t think she’s hearing me.

I said, “Well, you didn’t feel that way with the other nurse.” She said, “I didn’t.” And I think that’s a great example of, well, what could that nurse have done differently? I’m not saying she was a good or bad nurse, but that perception that, well, this nurse felt like she was on my side. She was trying to help me have this baby. The other one didn’t. I get those scenarios all the time with team members where you say, well, what happened?

What did this person do that made you feel that way? And we always have to check ourselves too to say, well, how much of this was me? How much this was me going in feeling like I already know this is going to go that poorly, so my attitude is going to show and then saying, but wait a minute, right or wrong, that is not the way that should have … the results should not have been that way.

Dr. Karen Greene:

But like you said, it’s all about perception. So your niece felt a certain way and had that been brought by somebody at a later date because God forbid it was a bad outcome, and then her complaint was, well, she wasn’t on my side, and that’s why there was a bad outcome. And it probably was unrelated, but because she felt that way, that could have improved how she perceived the outcome, good or bad.

Because even in the worst situation, if you feel like someone’s on your side, that makes a big difference that if something goes wrong, it’s like, well, at least they tried. And so she went into the situation thinking that that person didn’t even try. It’s like, well, that’s why this happened.

And so how can we reevaluate that situation to make the people taking care of the person or taking care of the patient understand this is why they felt that way? And is it because of bias they brought in? Is it because of bias by the person? What can we do differently because this is how they felt?

And again, it is more of a question answer, more of a, like you said, you have to kind of check yourself and you have to understand, what did I do differently? What could I have done better?

Dr. Mironda Williams:

Because in the end, we are in the healthcare business, and so we want patients to feel comfortable availing themselves to healthcare. We’ve talked about social determinants sometimes of healthcare and access and all these kinds of things, but a lot of times, especially in black and brown communities, they don’t even want to go to the doctor or go to see any kind of healthcare provider because of the history where they’ve always felt like they’re not listening to me anyway, they don’t really care about me anyway. So why am I going to take the time to go see somebody that’s just going to make me worse?

And so when we have the opportunities where they have engaged the healthcare system, we have to do better so that with the next issue, they will avail themselves to care because they feel like they’re being seen and heard genuinely.

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

So that they won’t wait until things are at a critical-

Dr. Mironda Williams:

At a critical point

Dr. Karen Greene:

And they show up in the emergency room.

Kim Cooks:

It’s so powerful coming from you. That’s what inclusion is all about. I always tell people when they say, well, I don’t see color, I see all people the same. I say, well, that’s going to be a problem because inclusion is not about you pretending like everybody is the same.

Inclusion is about acknowledging that those differences are great for those that makes us all that diversity, that we put it all together. So I may not understand why my Asian colleague or Asian patient in your case acts a certain way, but man, if you explain it to me, at least I at least acknowledge that, okay, I understand that now. I thought that was strange they were acting that way and I thought they were.

Well, then when you say, oh, I just didn’t know because many times, we just don’t know. And we can’t make all of us the same just because we want it to be. That’s the problem with just measuring one aspect of diversity. It’s the no, it’s so much bigger than us saying we got three people that look like us or feel like us. It’s about how are we taking all that into account and making sure that we are making the right adjustments to accommodate all so when you put us all together, what a magnificent movement.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

Absolutely. That is so good. I think this has been just rich in terms of helping to expand our own understanding. And I found this little cartoon thing. Deanna, we had a little episode, I think it was earlier this season where we talked a little about diversity, equity, inclusion in medicine. And I think for a lot of people just understanding, what do you mean by diversity? What do you mean by equity? What do you mean?

And so you had first brought up the example of trying to see over a fence. And so as we were getting ready for this episode today, it just happened to pop up on my Facebook feed. I saw a picture. I said, “Oh, that’s it. That’s what Deanna was saying.” And it talked about equality, equity, reality. And then they added this thing at the end of there called liberation. And what I love about that, so equality means that-

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

Everybody gets to see.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

… everybody gets to see. So what they’re looking at, they’re trying to look over offense at a baseball game. And so you have someone that’s a tall like me, someone medium like-

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

Karen.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

… you Deanna because y’all are so close, so somebody shorter, like Karen. And so you give them the same box, you’re being equal but because of their different heights, everybody still can’t see over the fence and see the baseball game. So equality may give everybody the same thing, but that doesn’t mean everybody needs the same thing.

Equity, so the tall person like me, I don’t need a box. I could already see over the fence, so I don’t need that box. Reuse that box to somebody who needs it. And so you give the right size box to Deanna. So now she can see over the fence and little bitty Karen, she needs two boxes. So she could have my box and then another box, and now she can see over the fence. That’s equity.

Then reality, you got big tall me on five boxes on five boxes. I didn’t need the first box, but now I’ve got five boxes. Little Deanna is on her tippy-toes trying to see over one box, and Karen just done gave up. She ran out. I can’t see the game. I just don’t even care. But the thing that was so powerful on this little cartoon, they added liberation. Just get rid of the fence.

Instead of trying to help me, just get rid of the barrier, get rid of that obstacle, get rid of the challenge, and just get rid of the fence and then we can just all see the game and enjoy the baseball. I mean, so yeah.

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

That’s our wish.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

That’s our wish.

Kim Cooks:

I think the powerful thing about that, because I’ve seen that comic, and I think the best thing is that helping people realize, you’re not taking anything away from the tall person by giving the boxes to the other people just so they can see too.

And I think that’s what has happened with the whole DE and I program is we politicized it so much that we fear and certainly and dow have convinced people that, well, if you’re helping with the underrepresented and providing equity, then you must be taking something away.

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

And that’s not the case.

Kim Cooks:

That’s not true.

Dr. Mironda Williams:

Absolutely. That’s good. I think that’s a good place to end this episode. It’s been so good because again, this is a very, as Kim is mentioned, it’s very complex. It can be complicated. Diversity is not one thing. It’s a lot of things. So it’s going to mean that we all have to keep having the conversation.

That’s one of the things that we really wanted to do with this podcast is again, you talk about a safe space. We tell everybody at the table when you come into the studio table, this is a safe space. We’re just having a conversation. We’re talking, we’re trying to understand, we’re trying to hear other viewpoints and listen to our experts in certain areas to help us be better.

And then hopefully by providing this information to our broader audience, it helps them to think about things differently and to also have better understanding and tools that they can use in their workplace or in their educational environment, Karen like for your son to advocate for themselves and to learn what it means to have an ally, but then to always also keep your ally accountable.

Say, it’s okay for you to tell me it’s okay that everything’s good, but when we meet at the meeting, I need you to speak up. That’s powerful. That’s very good. So thank you, thank you, thank you for making yourself available and bringing your insight and your experience and helping us to continue to understand what we do and broaden the conversation and create this safe space.

Did you ladies have anything else that you wanted to check in before we get ready to sign off and let this powerful woman go back to doing those powerful things in your world?

Kim Cooks:

[inaudible 00:42:43].

Dr. Mironda Williams:

Thank you. Thank you. So we hope our audience has enjoyed this episode of Take Good Care podcast and our series of life lessons with Take Good Care. Just begin to think about some of these things, how you can advocate for yourselves and others, and as we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and understand that it doesn’t mean that anything’s being taken away from you. We’re just getting rid of the fence. We just want to get rid of the fence.

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

Everybody can see baseball.

Dr. Miranda Williams:

Everybody can see the baseball game. So please share us with your friends and family. Remember, you can always reach us at our website at rosagonocology.com. If you have a question for us, please remember, we have an email address at [email protected]. Check us out on all of our social media platforms and wherever you get your podcasts. And until we meet again, I’m Dr. Mironda Williams.

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

Dr. Deanna Guthrie.

Dr. Karen Greene:

I’m Dr. Karen Greene. Take good care.

Dr. Deanna Guthrie:

That was good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Dr. Karen Green:

Thank you so much.